Real Estate IDX Blog

wow, sometimes we have a silly world that we live in

We all know what walking distance is.  It is mearly a representation of how far a distance is from another and basically lets you know that it is close. 

Words, words and more words.  Pretty soon you will only be able to grunt and point.  lol

Buyer says.  "How many bedrooms?"  Agent says. "Uhgg" then Points 3 times.

It is all kinda silly but I can see the point when it gets carried too far and people really do discriminate.

Next thing you know we'll be trying to define what the definition of "is" is.

I am sure I have used "walking" before and will not ever again.  I don't believe agents are trying to be vicious, we are trying to describe the home.  Good schools is another one.  Even if the schools are good, I have been told we cannot use this term.  Describe the house as best we can - hopefully that will keep us safe :).  Thanks for the reminder.

I believe that the article you reference is out-dated and the strict restrictions have been lifted since then.  There was another blog recently that addressed this very issue and it linked to the Fair Housing website page that deals specifically with this. 

As I understand it, this nonsense was challenged almost as quickly as it came out and the language was reversed.  It really is quite silly and is in no way discriminatory to reference a point as being 'within walking distance' of some other point.  Everyone knows and understands what is meant and there is no attempt to discriminate against anyone in using such language.

Here is an interesting blog for you guys to read.

 http://www.narwisdom.com/2008/02/21/nar-promoting-walkable-cities/

While it is always preferable to err on the side of caution, there is no need to 'handicap' ourselves with restrictions that simply do not exist... I found the article that came out after the nonsense got going.  http://www.fairhousing.com/index.cfm?method=page.display&pagename=hud_resources_hudguid2

From the article:

"4. Handicap. Real estate advertisements should not contain explicit exclusions, limitations, or other indications of discrimination based on handicap (i.e., no wheelchairs). Advertisements containing descriptions of properties (great view, fourth-floor walk-up, walk-in closets), services or facilities (jogging trails), or neighborhoods (walk to bus-stop) do not violate the Act. Advertisements describing the conduct required of residents ("non-smoking", "sober") do not violate the Act. Advertisements containing descriptions of accessibility features are lawful (wheelchair ramp)."

Fair housing is the only kind of housing we should practice.  The problem is not the law, but the regulations around it and the way it is enforced.  This is one area where NAR has dropped the ball, instead of being the "voice of reason" they have responded to the regulatory abuses like a battered wife.  I can give you numerous examples of good intentions gone bad including private companies that make their money by intimidation and extortion going after "deep pocket" big box brokers.  This is crazy. 

Great addition Tim and Susan Thanks for your input.

There are many things to watch out for and the Internet makes them much easier to get caught on something you had no intention of doing.

Brian,

I got chastised by another agent a couple of years ago for putting the phrase, "just a hop, skip and a jump from the beach" in an ad.  Apparently that phraseology was a bit on the edge but not really over the line because it is an idiomatic phrase, meaning that it is commonly accepted in our linquistic parlance as being figurative rather than literal.

To be on the safe side, however, I changed the verbage to say "only 3 blocks from the ocean".

Good grief!  LOL

Are you sure it was only 3 blocks and not 3.2 and 7 millimeters?  lol

While I in no way condone discrimination, I think that this has gotten out of hand....I mean, if you come out and say something like, "cripples not welcome" then okay....you've crossed the line.  But as the Fennell's, in the comment above point out, sometimes these things are figurative.

In a similar vein, I once had an agent who called me having problems finding one of my listings and when I gave them directions that included a reference to the Catholic church that was right up the street, she warned me that I "couldn't" do that.  When I asked her what, she said use the Catholic church as a point of reference for my listing.  

It's getting ridiculous!

 

Bob Mitchell

ValueList Real Estate Services, Inc. 

They say you can use schools and churches as directions only.  Turn left at the church, turn right at the elementary etc.

Beyond that it can be interpreted in a discriminatory way.

Remember use as directions only.

I think most try to do the right thing.  Now, with all of the mapping e.g. google, yahoo, mapquest, buyers can find out the proximity of a given house to things they are interested in.   It certainly is getting complex out there.

This is political correctness gone insane. We were told in a CE class last month that we should change our rental application because we ask for the names, ages, and relationship to the applicant for any other people who weill be living on the property. The teacher said we shouldn't ask either age or relationship. So the prospective tenant can have other people living there w/o telling me how old they are or why they are living there? How am I supposed to know if I need an application from them if I can't ask if they are 18 or older? 
We don't discriminate against children, and we can prove that easily. We're not asking so we can discriminate, but just to know who will be living there.

We do need to be careful because we never know who may take something as discrimination.  I agree that "walking distance" is pushing it, but I think that some of the other things that I saw in the link from this post makes sense.  Sober?  There's one to be careful about.  Alcoholism is considered a disease and some folks are on disability because of it.  Thanks for the reminder to be cautious.

That does seem overboard.  But very interesting at the same time.  I was just reading over the Tennessee REC and the violators and I think just by luck have I not violated any of them yet!

This is excellent information and good heads-up in general. Who knew ads could be so discriminatory unintentionally.

Brian, what about saying "it's a stone throw's away"? -- that would discriminate against people who are unable to throw stones.  They shouldn't be buying glass houses anyways.

Brian, I was on the Board of Directors for a Fair Housing Council for over 8 years and during that time HUD went through some extreme interpretations like "walking distance", "walk-in closets", describing views since that would offend the blind and even Master bedroom.  It is my understanding that the HUD list no longer contains these versions of wording and that is just fine to say "walking distance." The biggest violations actually come from familial status and I hear those all of the time. 

This really is like pulling at straws. Yes there may be some technical violations in the ways that we advertise... But they are ridiculous. Walking distance for example... Even if you cannot walk it is undeniable that if you had legs that worked you could walk... But even if you cannot walk chances are that you have a chair and you can use it to get from where you are to any place that is within walking distance. Ethically I think that these words aer just fine... the law is just going a bit overboard.

It really is getting out of hand. (Can I say that????) We can hardly do our jobs with having to think about every little thing we say.  What  litigious society we live in. (OOPs, can I even say that??) Well, I guess it is good to be reminded of how things can be perceived.

Diane thanks for your input.  I would hope so because i place www.walkscore.com stuff on all my sites now which is very cool.  Gives great references to distance.

Brian-Good post, although I think it is correct that you can now use the words "walking distance". I think, however, that fair housing is not merely political correctness. It deals with how someone may interpret our remarks, and we should be sensitive.

I'm actually amazed every time I drive by a development near me that has several signs that I think are trying to be inclusive, using the word "open" in several contexts. However, the one that stands out is the one that says "open to family values". I say that is "open to interpretation". Family values has been used as a code phrase by people who really mean that they disapprove of gay people. I doubt this is the message they are trying to convey, but it certainly could be interpreted as discriminatory, especially in a state (Illinois) where sexual orientation is a protected class. This development is not a small time builder. The complex is being built by Lennar and Ryland. Maybe they didn't go to fair housing training.

Maybe we should have one class of people rather than drawing the lines and creating different classes of people.

Humans.

More rules and media about topics like this creates even more issues.  Why does everything have to be so complicated.  Who ever said complicated was better?

I live in Idaho and previously from Montana and honestly we don't deal with discriminatory things that much around here so it all seems a little overboard.  I guess I can't relate to it all as much as some of you who have to deal with different things in your areas. 

Maybe just the picture of the house with everything else blank underneath.

Brian, this is a great post, and you are exactly right. So many times we want to be helpful that we say little things that are not allowed.

All our ads should just say: "House For Sale, please do not ask any questions about anything because we can't answer."

Good information. Thanks for the reminder.

Great Post! 

I took an ethics class in February and found out if a client asks me if there are kids in the neighborhood I can't tell them because they are a protected class under the fair housing laws. Even if they have kids and want to know if there are kids to play with.

I think the person who created that law watched "Children of the corn" too many times and are afraid! :)

SO anyway, I now tell them that I'm not allowed to tell them because I would be breaking the law, but if you come back at 3 there is a school bus unloading, but I can't tell you what they are unloading.

Too funny. Pam.

Can you elaborate on what they said about talking about kids?  Post it here for all to read if you can find the material.

I was just discussing this issue with another agent on a different forum.  It is a little on the crazy side these days. 

I truly watch what I say in listings and am careful to not violate any fair housing laws.  However, I think all of this has gotten WAY out of hand.  Before you know it, things we do, will violate someone... I sneeze the wrong way, wear the wrong color sweater.  Where does all this end?  Whatever happened to "Freedom of Speech"?  What are our troops fighting for?  OK... I've gone off the deep end.  But don't you wonder what is too much?

haha everyones so meticulous 

It has become just flat-out stupid.  Or should I just wait to find the right entity to sue for saying something that could be construed to be anti-left-handed...  

We need a Loser-pays" legal system to discourage the idiotic lawsuits that end up creating this crap. 

I was typing a listing into realtor.com and they warn you of a possible violation and actually will not let you put it in.  My office is on Race Street and they wouldn't let me type in Race!  Race Street is a main street in Searcy.  I also had trouble typing in handicapped accessible, if I remember right.  But I am all for us trying to be aware of hurtful discriminatory terms.

There is a subdivision here called Seminole Lakes. In fact we have a lot of names with Seminole in them, lakes, casinos, towns, neighborhoods, and Realtor.com will not allow any of them in. They say it is a fair housing violation! This is really going too far. Katerina

This is crazy, and represents the state of our country.  Though I do agree, we have to be careful.  Advertising that something is walking distance from something else in NO WAY discriminates against people of handicap.  It just doesn't.  Neither does talking about a beautiful staircase or the glamorous swimming pool.  How about "gorgeous city views?"   Am I going to get sued by a blind person?  No.  I'll still sell them the house, every time.

There have been excessive interpretations of the law such as the "short walk away" example.  Most of these have been corrected.  There is a standard of reasonableness that is a governing legal principle when determining if a party has violated Fair Housing law. 

I've spoken with a HUD representative in Washington, D.C. about enforcement policy and I don't believe HUD is looking to pursue the fine line stuff.  They have plenty of egregious violations to deal with.

Brian - Some of this stuff gets a little crazy. The walking distance example is a perfect case of non discrimination that people try to blow out of proportion and make it into something when it is not.

BTW - Who is that great looking guy in your header - LOL 

Agreed, we all need to be careful. But seriously if a buyer has little kids they will want to know if they can walk to the school or would it require a bus. Some of these things are a big reach aren't they? But it's the world we all live in.

I am glad to see that I am not the only Realtor frustrated by the ridiculous over-reaching that has occurred by some in regards to the fair housing laws. I think that the sad result of the complete over reaction is the loss in validity of actual discrimination. So many petty and minor issues are brought into question (walking distance? Hop skip and a jump? - these are the things we are concerned about? - seriously?), that real issues of concern get lost in the shuffle.

A few weeks back, I fired a potential client who accused me of doing it because they were overweight. For a brief moment I was concerned, simply because the accusation alone can be enough these days. (The truth is they had no ability to secure a mortgage, not even close - I even offered to refer them to a credit counselor!). The issue being that they have completely lost sight of the fact that there bad credit is most likely not the result of anyone else's doing but theirs (and if it is not their fault, there are agencies that will help them restore their credit.) We are now raising generations of people who are being taught that if they can't have whatever they want it must be someone else's fault and they deserve compensation. The same can be said for the 'credit crunch'. Our economy is not as bad as the news makes it out to be - what we are experiencing is akin to a bratty child who gets their allowance cut-off and has to go out and make their own money. Hundreds of thousands of people lined up to buy stuff (not only houses - what about all the boats and motorcycles and plasma TV's that HELOC's paid for???) they couldn't afford - and now they want their rich uncle Sam to pay for it.

I recently went through the school aged children discussion with a potential client and his response was something as follows "So you can't give me opinion on value (just stats related to the local market), you can't tell me how it structurally relates to the surrounding houses (only that I can recommend that they hire an inspector), you can't recommend a good lender (I can provide a minimum of three, but must give equal weight to all), you can't tell me if there are other children in the area (even though there was a school on the street), you can't tell me if the schools are any good (lets not even begin to address this question...we have all been there) and you can't tell me how to help address my current mortgage situation (all I can say is talk to your lender or call an attorney since they were in an ARM, but had not yet fallen delinquent so according to a corporate legal decision, even mentioning the short sale process or any other method of negotiating a workout with the lender at this point would be part and parcel to mortgage fraud) - what exactly can you do?"

Sometimes I wonder myself these days.

By the way - do you have express written consent for use of that graphic at the top of your blog for commercial purposes??? LOL

Brian, I do not discriminate in any way. I also don't bow down to all this Political correctness crap that gets interpreted into Fair Housing Laws. Fair Housing laws were established to allow folks to live in the neighborhood they choose without being discriminated against.

That has now been turned around to say that if a devout Jew ask to live near a temple I can't even help him. To me that is a direct contradiction of what the law was established for. He can request to live in a certain neighborhood and can't be prohibited from doing so but I can't help him!!! BS is what it is.

For me, I will just continue to use common sense in my business. If I get sued because I'm not PC then so be it. 

I hear alot of comments all the time about how Realtor.com boots out ads and stuff due to these words.  That is crazy. 

Why are you manually entering in things into their system anyway?  Isn't it an automated feed you don't have to worry about?

Another thing to watch for...

Many years ago one of my clients had a listing and the owner took it upon themselves to add content to the flyers in the home.

They photo copied another flyer on the back of the handout.

They put stuff on there that was a violation and everyone got fined.

Make sure you know what your sellers are doing too....

Oh Good Gawd!  "Walking distance" being discriminatory against those who can't walk?  I am so over all of this PC crap.  Time for our society to grow up and look for similarities instead of being so ready to highlight differences and sue.

I think we may have established that Walking Distance may be acceptable.  What is the general consensus on this???

Walk-in closets, walking distance, running path, starter home... what next?  Frankly, walking distnce looks a lot different to someone in their 20's than it does to someone in their 60's - aside from any handicap.  These are descriptions, not phrases that limit the use of a property.  

It is getting quite ridiculous with the number of simple words that can offend any person at anytime. I was always told you can't please all the people all of the time. There has to be a line drawn or we will simply run out of words. 

Brian-I don't have a link or anything useful that talks about why we can't tell someone if there are kids or not. I was attending an ethics class (classroom setting not online) and the instructor mentioned it. I personally think the instructor read too much into it. If a seller said they didn't want to sell to someone with kids, then I think that would fall under the fair housing laws. But if someone asks me are there kids in the neighborhood and I've seen them, I don't get why I can't say that I've seen those little creatures lurking around.

I listed a couple of houses in my cul-de-sac, I can vouch that they are in my neighborhood, 2 keep calling me mom! :)